Challenging White Supremacy Cultural Norms in Philanthropy with Radical Optimist Collective
In this insightful ”It’s Not Your Money” episode, Capital Collaborative Funder In Residence, Jessamyn Shams-Lau, talks with Lisa Flick Wilson and Staci Walker from the Radical Optimist Collective to discuss their experiences working with philanthropy teams on racial justice learning, how that is different and similar to working with teams in other industries, and how their approach as a collective differs from typical org white supremacy cultural norms.
The Collective, composed of individuals from diverse backgrounds, stands out for its rejection of traditional organizational structures. Members collaborate across various fields, embracing strengths and unique talents, and rooting themselves in a liberation-focused structure that challenges conventional roles. Second, Staci Walker underscores the importance of language in philanthropy, advocating for honesty and a shift in perspective. Encouraging conversations about philanthropic wealth from its origins, she emphasizes truth-telling and the necessity to question assumptions. Lastly, Lisa Flick Wilson and Staci Walker delve into the challenges of philanthropy, addressing issues such as a sense of urgency, a lack of scrappiness, and the inhibiting impact of perfectionism. They contrast experiences of shape-shifting and performance in philanthropy with the liberating authenticity valued within the Radical Optimist Collective.
Interview Transcript
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
Hi, everybody. Welcome to ""It's Not Your Money": Real Talk About Achieving Racial Equity in Philanthropy." Our slightly irreverent but frank conversations feature leaders challenging the status quo plaguing philanthropy today and those who are demonstrating how we can collectively build a more equitable and just funding landscape, particularly for Black, Indigenous, and other People of Color, women, and non-binary founders. I am Jessamyn Shams-Lau, Funder in Residence at the Capital Collaborative by Camelback Ventures, and I'm going to be your host today. And I am joined by Lisa Flick Wilson and Staci Walker from the Radical Optimist Collective. Lisa and Staci, welcome, welcome.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
Thank you.
Staci Walker (she/her)
Thank you.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
So happy to have you here today. Thank you for joining us. I would love for you to just start out by telling our audience a little bit more about yourselves and maybe also weave in a bit of Radical Optimist Collective, too, if you can.
Staci Walker (she/her)
Perfect. You go first, Lisa.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
Okay. And then we'll co-do about Radical Optimist. So I am Lisa Flick Wilson. I'm so happy to be here and back in community with you, Jessamyn. We could weave in stories about how we got to know each other as part of this content, but I have been a member of this Collective from the beginning, I'm one of the co-founders. And then my many past lives in nonprofits and philanthropy, but really at the intersection of putting people at the center of change, but really through the lens of looking at how race and racism and white supremacy intersect that. And I feel strongly about my position as a White woman disrupting those systems and doing my own work. So that's me, and I'm based in Atlanta, Georgia.
Staci Walker (she/her)
And I'm Staci Walker, as Jessamyn said. Based here in Atlanta as well. I consider myself a recovering philanthropy practitioner in the sense that I spent some time officially in the community foundation world working with donors. And before that, a journalist background and really then moving into nonprofit centering in education. That has been where I've spent a lot of my time, really believing that education is a place of level-setting many of our histories of wrong. And then most recently, just really landing with the work with Radical Optimist Collective. And I will just, we'll talk about our work in more detail, but this is my happy place. I've finally, after 50 years, settled into where I'm supposed to be, my passion, committed to racial healing. So, yeah, that's me.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
Amazing.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
As Stacy said, we're a collective of folks that are from all different kinds of backgrounds. Our structure believes in one that is going with the strengths and beautiful magic that people have within them that doesn't necessarily have to be attached to an organizational structure. So when we work together, we work together, and when we don't, we're doing all other kinds of brilliant things in the world, from being college professors to philanthropic consultants, to reiki masters, to soul doulas, to body workers, to coaches, to you name it, to parents, and everything in between. We believe that that structure is really rooted in liberation and trying to do things differently in a way that works with people who have been in careers for a long time that are just trying to figure out ways to bring their strengths in ways that look different. So that's who we are.
Staci Walker (she/her)
Yeah. An expansive mindset like. We are all about just being bigger than the little boxes we're often put in.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
I just want to breathe some of that in. That sounded amazing! Just the way that you're coming together and accepting how there are so many different things that we all want to do in the world and the roles that we want to take on. It's not necessarily one thing in one box or even three boxes. But I can really appreciate, Staci, why you said you found your happy place. Given again, as you described it, this idea of such an expansive community. It's beautiful.
Well, in ""It's Not Your Money"" tradition, we would love to just quickly stop off at our first pit stop, which is language. One of the reasons that this series is called "It's Not Your Money" is because when we incorrectly label the money in foundation endowments, in donor advised funds, as still belonging to the founders of those entities, then we all end up in philanthropy acting like the money and the foundation belong to them, which is not true, first of all, and secondly, perpetuates the concentration of power. So our words are really influencing who holds power in this work. So I would love to ask you, Staci, first, what shift in language do you think we need that might help us diversify power in the funding world?
Staci Walker (she/her)
Yeah, I appreciate that question, and I'm going to take the liberty, Jessamyn, of being a media person that sort of elevates the question. I'm going to twist it just a little bit to fit my answer.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
Go ahead.
Staci Walker (she/her)
And I love this idea of language because language and words, as we know, matter. And not even just the words, but how we say them, how intentional we are around what they mean. But I think I would like to bring into this space is this. We still have some work to do to even get to the origins of why that money doesn't belong to where we say it comes from for these families, and philanthropy, and these spaces. So for me, and this ties right into our work and why bringing people to Montgomery, to EJI, to understand the history, right? We have to understand the origin. I'm such a learner. So we need to, in my opinion, for philanthropy to really start to shift and understand, we have to do the truth-telling and explain. Not start the conversation in chapter two, which is like, "Oh, we've got this wealthy family and we're going to give money." Let's go back to the first chapter. Where did the money come from? And then we have to start to educate from that. And then that shifts everything.
But I'm just a big fan of we got to get them back to the origins of where the wealth really came from. And that honesty, while it's really hard, is a really critical piece of how we begin to shift, folks. So that's going to be my answer. It's not specific language, but let's start at the very beginning of how we got here.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
No, what I appreciate about that, Staci, is that there's an incredible power in what you're advocating for there. But at the same, like, I think folks who are listening, that's quite pithy advice. Don't start at chapter two. It's easy to remember, we need to have a conversation about chapter one, first of all, and I really like how you use the chapter descriptor there, because maybe it's not even chapter two. It might be chapter ten for some of these institutions. All of this content, this narrative, this history that hasn't really been spoken about or has been cherry-picked. And how do we tell the full story beginning at the origin, like you said? That's a really powerful concept, Staci.
Staci Walker (she/her)
So many assumptions, right? We just assume we make assumptions around, oh, the wealth is here, and then we start to talk about it. But let's go back to the very beginning, and that's such an important piece. So, yes, thank you for letting me elevate that.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
Oh, of course. Absolutely. Thanks, Staci. Okay, Lisa, over to you.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
Yeah, I think I'll just... Staci, you and I share a brain sometimes. I was going to say a similar thing. But I'll just add on to what you said about the power in,... When I think about power, I think about "How do I see myself in relationship to another?" And I think so often within the hierarchical structures that came from capitalism, it's this, which is directly based in how we've segregated race. There's so much that comes in that layering instead of "What is my own personal posture around power and do I see myself connected to the life of another person?"
And so I think there's also this piece around the repair that can come from knowing, right? We live in a society where millions of people every day sign up for ancestry.com because they're so inspired by thinking about where their family comes from, their origin story. Well, can we create an era where I'm doing that for my legacy. I might come from a family that has a lot of money, but what is my origin story? What is my relationship to money?
One of our colleagues, Vanessa, does beautiful work in helping people look at these areas of fiscal trauma, and there's some lovely work she's done with our team and with me personally around "What are all the messages I've received about money that aren't even mine?" They're just these things I carry, like another skin that I'm like, "Oh, where is that?" And how do all of those messages create the power structures, the words, the language in these systems that are so powerful in terms of the ways in which our nonprofit and philanthropic structures operate?
So I think, really using a framework of repair. Not from a place of shame, but from a place of "Wow, I want to know so that I can actually do better with what I have." That, to me, has real beauty in it versus, I think, sometimes the shame that might come with maybe learning that your people's money came from a legacy of enslavement or a legacy of exploitation.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
Yeah, absolutely. What I really appreciate about what you just shared, Lisa, is that you're describing a journey that you both, and Radical Optimist have been part of for me as well. So perhaps kind of by way of just letting folks know how we initially met. My own journey - learning as much as I can, slowly but surely being more aware and understanding what was previously not conscious for me around racial equity, around racial justice, around progress towards liberation, the just transition - began a number of years ago and has been quite a rocket ship journey, as it often is for people when all of a sudden Pandora's Box is opened. And it was when I was working at the Peery Foundation that I got the chance to work with you amazing women when you came in and were doing training with our whole staff. And it was an incredible experience to go through that together and not only be thinking about those origin stories.
We all carry with us our own relationship to money, the trauma, the messages that we have taken on about money, and race, and hierarchy, and the way the world just works, and we can't change it. When we're more conscious of it we realize that actually doesn't fit with my principles. That actually is not something that I believe in my core. Why have I been holding on to that so tightly? And doing that, not only as individuals, but as a team, was just a very cool experience to think about. Again, the layer of messages around money in philanthropy and around your role as a gatekeeper - as we're often referred to in philanthropy - a gatekeeper to that money as well. It was a very powerful experience that, again, just accelerated my commitment to continuing on this journey of awareness.
So, first of all, big thanks to both of you, to your colleagues as well at the Collective. I know from personal experience, you do really important work. And second of all, you have done a lot of work with philanthropy organizations and folks working in philanthropy, but also with many other industries as well. And so I am intrigued to know what is different, if anything, about working on racial equity, racial justice, education within philanthropy versus other industries. Is it just the same across the board and we're thinking with this special, unique flower when we're really just struggling with the exact same stuff that everybody else struggles with? Or is it more difficult and is it more sticky?
Staci Walker (she/her)
Maybe I'll jump in, Lisa, because I've been thinking about this when I described myself as a recovering philanthropic practitioner. I still stay proximate to the space because the stakes are so high.
Honestly, Jessamyn, I mean, moving resources and being able to help the philanthropic community shift and do things differently, I just can't walk away altogether because it feels to me like more bang for your buck, if you will. And so I think there's just so much opportunity. If we can turn the corner for philanthropy, we're really turning the corner. And so I just want to say that I do think that that's a difference for me and why I stay at least one foot in the door because I feel like that's so important. And, of course, there are these other systems in places that are also similar places where we need to continue to elevate racial equity.
And then at the end of the day, this is healing work. I don't want us to forget that we are all broken by the system, repression, and haves and have nots. And so whatever sector you're in, wherever you are, if it's corporate, nonprofit, social justice, we are all broken in some ways. And so it's healing work that we are really about. How do we begin to acknowledge and then begin to heal together? So I just want to say, for me, the philanthropic piece feels like if we can just start there, that's a big one. So that's me personally. Lisa, I'd love to hear what you'd.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
So even in the climate we're living in right this very second, which, where there's a whole other onslaught of "DEI what? What are we doing now? Where is that?" Like a thing of the past. Are we still really focused on this thing that has become, I think, much more easier, again, given government structures that are for there being a retreat from. And I do feel like there, and maybe this is the Achilles heel sometimes how philanthropy works, which is, I would say one of the challenges I had when working inside philanthropy was this feeling of, and while urgency can be toxic, the lack of urgency, because you're sitting on resources and you don't have to have this scrappiness of figuring out how to make payroll for people or how to make ends meet for the organization or to go to put towards your mission. There is something, though, that I think that related to really a commitment towards racial equity as part of the philanthropic strategy seems to have had a deeper staying power than we're seeing in a corporate environment or even in some of the nonprofit environments. And maybe that's just a small slice of folks that we're working with, but I've definitely been seeing that.
I think the other piece around where I would say, I think the other industries might have a little bit more of a gain on the philanthropic sector, is that scrappiness, is that willingness to just try things, mess it up, do it again, try something different. A bit more experimentation versus, there's a lot of perfectionism, and with that kind of how are we seen in the world. Which I know is important, don't get me wrong. We live in a place, a world of cancel culture where it's very easy to feel nervous about what you say or do. And often there can be so much handering around getting it just perfect, that I think that we've seen that a lot in the philanthropic organizations and philanthropic support organizations we work with around still a very bubble wrap approach to how are we caring for philanthropy. And that, I think, causes a lot of people to not take risks.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
That bubble wrap, the bubble wrap around philanthropy, that is such a powerful image for anybody listening who works in philanthropy and has done that protective.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
You feel it when you walk in the room. You walk in the room, you're like, "Oh, I better be tender."
Staci Walker (she/her)
We call it the white gloves. Put on the white gloves. "Oh, it's so delicate.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
It was so liberating.
Actually, recently, Staci and I had the opportunity to be in a room, the kind of room in Atlanta that we used to be in that was full of kind of powerful people and people that we used to collaborate with. But as you know, when you are outside of those rooms, you were, like, on Mars. You might as well not have ever worked there before. But it was so wonderful, because when we re-entered a space like that, we were like, "Oh, we're different." Our posture changed. And it's not, like, snubbing our noses at these folks. It's more so, there was a different, seeing someone a different way and me operating and Staci operating in a different way that says, "You know what? I don't actually need to prove my worth to you." I don't have to show up in a way. And I felt like this when I was in philanthropy, which I think is the other part that is kind of sad. I don't have to walk in front of you as if you are a breathing ATM machine and if my dance moves are good enough, if I write well enough, and if my board looks a certain way, and if I just look a certain way, then the ATM will disperse. And that also wasn't fair to people in the philanthropy. But what we noticed is that it was our posture, our muscles that had been built in a different way, not that they were doing anything different. And so I think there's also an opportunity for those of us who are outside of philanthropy to also drop a little bit of the performance. Drop that bubble wrap. Like, we don't have to operate always in, we don't have to treat people in that way all the time. We could be less separate.
Staci Walker (she/her)
Yeah. That shape-shifting was really real. Shape-shifting so heightened in the philanthropic world. And like you said, Lisa, it was so wonderful to say, "Here I am. I don't have to do that,." And I think that's a wonderful place to be.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
You two are like a breath of fresh air. This is fantastic! I love how you're just naming some of the dynamics that is very rare that we name when we're working in the systems, in the rooms, in the organizations. And we have all three of us, in one way or another, kind of been emancipated from those systems. That may not be an appropriate word. But I think it's fascinating to now look back on that experience and reflect on how much of my energy went into the shape-shifting, like you said. How much of my energy was protecting this belief that there was no abundance. We either won the grant or everything would fail. We either got the recommendation through our board, or everything would be negative. And it's very kind of, I don't know. I don't think I felt this way when I worked in philanthropy. Maybe a little bit. But it's just, I think, really interesting to hear other people talk about that experience, that it's this weird little part of the world. Nobody really understands philanthropy because we make sure they don't understand philanthropy. Like, the general public has very little access to information about how decisions are made and how processes work in philanthropy, not through any fault of their own. Through our lack of transparency.
Anyway, it's rare to come across people who have had the similar experience and are also processing it through this lens of, "Okay, how do we name that? How do we get past it? How do we make it okay to not continue to uphold those norms that actually aren't helping anybody?" They're really not healthy for anybody involved.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
I was going to say probably one of the most powerful parts of my... So I also played a role in an intermediary role, right where I was the beloved nonprofit organization that then raised the money to go out to other people that didn't always have access, which that's a whole other thing we could unpack. But I'll never forget probably one of the most powerful learnings I ever had in that role was one of those grantees saying, "Yeah, we don't need the money. We're not going to shape-shift ourselves based on what you are passing through from this other person." Like, so much so that I was coached and told by other people I had to change grant reports, write them in my language from their language, all of that. And it was just really powerful for someone to say, "No, we're not doing it that way." And "No, we're not going to do your quarterly reports." And "No, we're not going to show up at those three grantee meetings. We're just not doing that." And there was also a racial dynamic there involved, too. This is a Black-led organization. I'm a White woman being in this intermediary role.
So I say all that to say, I think there was even more opportunity as muscle building for me in that intermediary role who was thinking, "Oh, look, the skies have parted and the suns have, the rays have shown down that we're doing something really well for all of these frontline organizations who really need the money, but we're the ones who can figure out how to get it to them." To say, "Wow, where was I holding white supremacy in place? Where was I enabling that system? Where was I supporting structures that are not benefiting these organizations?" But I thought they were, just because it was a flow of money, but it was really the flow of control.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
And that is actually a perfect segue, Lisa, into the next topic that I'd love to hear both of your opinions and expertise on. And it's around this idea that Radical Optimist Collective operates, as the name says, a collective. And I would love for you to describe a bit about what does that mean in real terms - behavioral patterns, norms, policies, power dynamics. And how does that approach differ or fly in the face of white dominant culture? Are there specific methods that you are rejecting about white supremacy culture and how that has shaped business norms and organizational norms, whether in philanthropy or any widespread organizational cultural norms?
Staci Walker (she/her)
I'm going to go first, Lisa.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
I was hoping you would.
Staci Walker (she/her)
Yes. So, oh, my gosh, Jessamyn, the work I do with the Collective, it feels like I'm at home, right? When I think about spaces that have ever been designed for me, a Black woman, they just don't exist in the workforce, in my history workforce. And so the work we do is so beautiful. There's so much trust, there's so much respect and true value in the uniqueness and lived experience of all of us. And it feels like home. I mean, honestly, for me, it feels like home. And it took me to get out of the rat race, white supremacy, very structured, individual, do your work, kind of measured, individual thinking. All those things that I think of the spaces I've been in. We laugh, but when Lisa and I are putting together an RFP, it's basically like, we get together, I sit and spew, and she's busy typing. We rely on each other's strengths in this just beautiful way. What Lisa does great, Lisa does. What Staci does great, Staci does. And there's just this beautiful, at the end of the day, the product is beautiful. So that's just one example. But this idea of just all of us coming together is just better than one mind. And we have so much uniqueness and experience from all different walks of life, and it's just beautiful. I can't really describe it in any other way. And so, yes, we resist a lot of traditional ways. When you're collaborative, it takes longer, but the work is slower. And so with our clients, we're like, "If you want a PowerPoint and you want this done in six weeks, we're not the ones. Like, we don't do that." We're going to just tell you off the bat.
And I'll say what is beautiful, too, about our process is we iterate and we're learning. The more we do this together, the more we understand what is aligned with how we work and what we just won't do, right, and where we draw the line.
And the last thing I'll say, and Lisa can fill this all in because she's awesome at kind of pulling all it together and I'm more of the spewer. But this idea around just doing things differently, it's a practice. We really call our work a practice, right? Like, you build muscles, just like anything that you do differently, you have to practice it. So we have to make sure those are the things we go back to, right? The intentionality, and how we slow down, and how we remind that this is iterative, and how we do this. So this idea of practicing, I think, is also to Lisa's point of perfectionism - get it right - that's very counter to what I would say is a white supremacy practice or white supremacy space.
Okay, I'm done, Lisa.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
And keep flowing, if I missed something in addition to what you've said. I do think like Staci saying, it's not like we set up shop one day and we're like, "Oh, look at us, here we go. Challenging white supremacy culture day one."
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
You didn't just get it out of the box and there it was.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
Turns out it takes ongoing work, right? Like what Staci was saying, there's one simple thing that sounds simple but is harder to practice is even something around believing and creating space for people's personal lives. So as a small example, we have two women in our Collective that are going through the process of fertility treatments and having babies. And it's one thing to be like, "Oh, great, sorry. Buck up and let's figure out how to meet the client's needs." We as a group have had to say, "How do we come together and literally have a B, C, and D backup in case someone doesn't know they have to go get their eggs transferred." I know that sounds like a silly thing, but it's believing that people have full lives that then this is a part of. That's just one example.
There's other things, like, the tax code exists for a reason. We can all be 1099. It doesn't have to look a certain way. There are certain structures. Like, there was something in some of the pre-work we were looking at for this conversation around operational structures. And that is something we're challenging all the time. Like, wait, why did I have to do it that way in a past organization? Like, I just heard this from someone who works at another organization the other day about the banking of PTO to donate to other people. I was like, "Oh, why hasn't that always existed?" Like, one person doesn't use their PTO, I'm going to give it to somebody else who needs it. Like, why isn't that just a common practice? It's all the same dollars on the books. It's not Jessamyn's dollars and Staci's dollars, it's just a whole number.
So there's all these things, I think, at every turn. I mean, quite honestly, there's a lot of healing from past structures that have hurt us. That have not done well for our own personal lives and careers. And so I think at each turn, we're having to say, "Whoa, okay, there it is again. Let's look at how we're doing that." I mean, I can't tell you how many times in a month I personally have to think about how is my speed? Am I making deadlines for other people that I didn't ask about?
I use a framework - part of this is part of our seeing whiteness work - I use a framework that I'm constantly practicing around, and it just takes constant discipline, vigilance, muscle building because white supremacy norms and structures are bigger than all of us. So is racism. It wasn't created overnight, and it's not going to be ended overnight. And there are ways in which even we as a Collective can hold those things in place that we constantly have to question.
I would say the same thing about knowing your value, right? Talking about money, us as a Collective? That's something most organizations aren't really talking about money. We're talking very openly about money. What do you need? What do you need? What's not working for you? How do we value each other? How do I value my work? All of that have had to be open conversations that are not the easiest things to do because we got all this other stuff that isn't even ours. So, honestly, I think continuing to grow into this Collective has taken a lot of time, and work, and just intention. Intentionality together that says we're willing say the hard things or ask the hard questions
Staci Walker (she/her)
But it doesn't feel like work, if you will. For me, I can just say that. And I mean, Lisa, you carry a lot too, but it's good work. Like, if there's a way to distinguish good work versus useless work. This is good work. It feels right, but it's not easy.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
And as I hear you both describing what you are building as practices at Radical Optimist Collective and how you're trying to see and value people as whole human beings, I suspect there's probably a lot of folks listening who are like, "I want that. How do I get that when my job's here?" And I don't know that anybody else is ready or willing or able to change the dynamics that my organization has inherited from the world's tradition of white dominant culture and colonialism and the legacies of industrialization and all sorts of great stuff. And so I wonder if we can just try and pull out a couple of things that, for folks who are... they're not in a place to apply for a job at Radical Optimistic Collective. And there are good reasons. They work at the organization that they work in. But maybe they want to try and take a piece of what you're talking about and try it out in their own organization or in their team where they do have a decent amount of influence. What advice, or tips, or examples would you give to somebody that's listening to be able to adopt a bit of that collective approach?
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
I'll add a few, Staci, and then you jump in. So one thing that I've always questioned is why people can't have jobs outside their job. So people are going to continue to build skills if you allow them the flexibility of continuing to do work in their own creative ways. I mean, we live in this gig society. Let's just acknowledge that and not say, "I own you." So if I was a head of a team, I would just be like, "I don't know what your bank account looks like. I don't know what your personal needs are. I know that I might not be able to meet all of them, not only in terms of money, but also in terms of skill and interest and passion." And that's just going to benefit the organization. If you're going out there and doing interesting things, I think that one is a no-brainer. Don't have a no moonlighting policy. You don't own these people. Allow people to do other creative things where they can earn money. I also think professional development, same thing. Like we say every year, while it's not a lot of money, every single person gets $500 to do whatever you want.
I don't care. It doesn't matter. We don't even need to know. It could be go get a massage, it could be buy a hotel room and sleep for three days. It doesn't matter. But so often we have these boxes around professional development and leadership development that have to look like you have to go to the philanthropy conference. Why can't you go to the Shaman Circle? Go wherever you want. Again, allowing people to,... If individual people are filling their bucket with their own passion and skills, that is going to come back into the workplace. It's just a no-brainer. So I think those two things alone are very, I think, easy things, both for individuals to ask for and for organizations, philanthropy to allow.
Staci Walker (she/her)
And I might just add, I was thinking about this a bit of, like, this idea of just take a little risk, right? So if I'm at my foundation and I'm like, "Gosh, I really want to move the needle but I know our trustees and our board aren't ready yet." Make the case of, let's just try this on. Let's just try it on. The little debate in me would say, "Let's look at the results." Like we are all about wanting to do good. We are saying we want to have impact. Let's just pause. How much impact, are we really changing maternal health outcomes? What we've been doing? Okay, so we're acknowledging that we're not. So let's try something different. And it doesn't have to be all of what we give out each year just a little bit. Let's just take this little bit. And I equate that similar to your portfolio of investments. There's always that little risky portfolio, the one that you just know that maybe you'll get back or you won't. So we take risk when we want to take risk. So just take this little risk of this and do something differently. And I think if you can just kind of with that, just try on these different ways of being and who knows what might come from it.
So that would be my other place is just try to find a little slither of where you can practice and try on some of these things that might seem radical or really different, but that's where those shifts can start to happen. So I would really encourage people, if you can find a way to carve that out, that might be meaningful, too.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
What I like about that advice, Staci, is it's relative as well. Try it on. Take a little bit of risk. It could be at the level of the portfolio, but it also could be how you walk into the next board meeting and the way that you communicate and hold yourself. Coming back to how philanthropy makes us feel and the norms and the expectations around power dynamics there. Trying on a different posture, trying on a different way of advocating for your grantees in a way that takes on a little bit risk, a little bit of risk, but it's, know, putting your job on the line.
Staci Walker (she/her)
That's right.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
Or even, like Staci said, this earlier, this idea being as proximate as possible. I mean, I remember back in the day, you go on these site visits, which are important. But really, the organization, they're having to roll out the red carpet. I mean, I remember how hard folks would have to work to just get these site visits together instead of just like, "Can I just show up at your regular Tuesday thing?" Not in a surprise attack kind of way, but just, I want to be in community with you and understand what your real struggles are. Where would these resources that I am the steward of, that I am the ambassador for, really make a difference versus what I'm asking you to kind of gymnastics your body into to fit our thing? Again, someone might say something totally off, but it's actually way deeper impact than something that directly relates to what I have to talk to you about. So I'd say, yeah, show up in times that don't just have to be about the site visit.
Staci Walker (she/her)
Yeah. And I'll just say, I have to say with that, too. That's authentic relationship, right? And what we haven't said in this space, and I just have to say it is, we tend to things we value. And so when I think about philanthropy and how philanthropy shows up, we do the things that we care about, we listen to the voices we value. That's just how we are. And so I think we have to examine that, too. Like, when we are hesitant to trust a community knows how to fix itself or to work and has its own solutions, with that is the understanding that we actually value that community and we value that they know what they need. If we're not willing to do that, maybe we need to ask ourselves, "Do we really value that voice? Do we really value that?" So I think that authentic relationship and true value of others has to be in place.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
Yeah. With some introspection there. Okay, well, our time is fast running out, so I am going to round us out and ask you both to briefly reflect on the future. So, putting on your radically optimistic hat, if all funders went through racial justice training and practiced as a team - particularly white funders - how do you think things could look different for communities of color, let's say, in 25 years. Would they look different.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
Well, I will just chime in and say, I think what I know for myself is that I have needed to think about looking at my whiteness, my racism, the way in which white supremacy works in me, as if I'm in a recovery program. And it's the easiest way to say it is that it is not a one shot training. I used to think it was that. I really did. But it has been, for me, around building the practices of honesty that then have led to behavior change, that then have led to more authentic relationships that will be the work of the rest of my life. And while that can feel exhausting, I think for White-bodied folks that if it's exhausting for you, think about how exhausting it is for a Black person. And so, especially if you have the privilege of being in a trustee position or being in a philanthropic position, it's just recognizing that that's just doubly, disproportionately should be part of the,... It's not even just the work. It's an invitation. I feel more free and liberated and connected than I ever have in my entire life.
Sorry, I'm a cusser. I was about to start throwing my F bombs around.
But what a gift! What a gift, right? So I say that to say, it wouldn't just be one training. It's just embracing that this is the work of my whole life long. And in the same way I'm going to work to think about our investments, I'm going to work to think about how racism is part of my operating system and how I need to change my behavior every single day to disrupt it
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
Amen to that.
Staci Walker (she/her)
Yeah, that's beautiful. I won't go on too long. I think I'm going to drop this word because I don't know that we've used it in this space, but if I'm thinking 25 years from now, we have a group of people in the sector, it will look differently. We'll have different people around the table, right? So I'm thinking we won't have just all White spaces of trustees and that sort of thing. And that trust of community will be very strong. We'll see all the data that we asked for, we'll see those things shifting and actually the gap coming closer to where we're trying to go, because we have shifted in how we're in relationship with communities that we are in partnership with, not in who we're just handing out a dollar to. And then I think philanthropy will be accountable. Like, who holds philanthropy accountable, right? We haven't talked about that, so maybe that's a whole nother segment, Jessamyn. But there will be some internal, as Lisa said, accountability around how I want to show up as a human being in this lifetime. And I want to show up differently, and I want to heal, and I want to do the hard work.
Staci Walker (she/her)
Yes, it's inconvenient. It's awfully inconvenient to do this work. But I'm willing to do that because I value the world that we're in as a human. And so that's where the hope is for me, is that people will see this as healing, and they'll run to the doors to figure out how to get more of that.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
I want to run to that world that you just described, Staci. That is what we're all aiming for in philanthropy. We say we are. Anyway. Yes, yes, and yes. We have run out of time today, and I just really want to encourage our viewers, please, please , please check out theradicaloptimist.com for more from this fabulous team about their approach, about their ways of working together and with their clients and partners. If you are interested in going deeper on any of the areas that Staci and Lisa have discussed today, I highly encourage you to consider taking your organization to Montgomery for one of those healing, immersive experiences to really understand the history of racial injustice, and chapter one through ten, before your organization's typical narrative starts at chapter eleven. The chapter is changing every time I reference this analogy now, Staci. I'm sorry, I'm butchering it. Anyway, they do an absolutely incredible job of holding space for groups that are going to the Legacy Museum to the National Memorial for Peace and Justice, and doing that very deep, vulnerable processing that comes along with really understanding and applying history to the important work of fueling social change.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
Lisa and Staci, I know you've got a couple of resources and other things that you'd like to add, so I'll pass over to you if you just want to highlight the things that you want to share.
Staci Walker (she/her)
I just want to say, too, Lisa and I are here on behalf of five other amazing people, so just want to shout out to our full Collective. We're just a little piece of it.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
Yes, they are energetically in this circle right now, for sure. I think just a couple of things is that, when we talked about one of the tools that, we're inspired by a lot of people in our work, and we take a lot of inspiration from the white supremacy framework of Tema Okun and team and others that have put that together, and that is a part of the practice we do. So that was a lot of the stuff that Staci and I were referencing, so we'll share that resource. We also use somatic abolitionism work in all of our healing. And so the work of Resma Menakem and team, all of that is embedded in our stuff. So that's one other thing. And then we have seen significant growth in affinity spaces. And so I'm part of and Staci is also part of a process called "Seeing Whiteness for Anti-Racist Action," which is our set of practices for White-bodied folks in looking at our own patterns of racism. And then Staci and our colleague Kenya lead BIPOC healing circles that are regenerative spaces for all that you could imagine that can happen in a healing space that is really co-created and designed by the people in those circles.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
And so we've found real beauty in both of those types of things. And so those are all things that we really love working with organizations on because when you work in intact ways, you can see so much more of that shared language and shared experience spread.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
Wonderful. We're going to post links to all of the opportunities that Lisa just mentioned in the chat, if they haven't already popped up. I can't see it right now. And I'll add, of course, please do check out the Capital Collaborative that is Camelback Ventures program that helps White funders deepen their commitment and efforts in advancing racial equity and racial justice through their work in philanthropy and impact investing. You can find more information about that program at www.camelbackventures.org.
Jessamyn Shams-Lau (she/her)
That is absolutely everything we have time for today. And I just want to say a huge thank you to Staci, to Lisa, and to everybody who tuned in today. Thank you all for being with us today.
Lisa Flick Wilson (she/her)
Thank you.
Staci Walker (she/her)
Thank you, Jessamyn, thanks so much.
The Capital Collaborative by Camelback Ventures works with white funders and social impact investors who want to deepen their individual and organizational commitment to racial and gender equity in philanthropy — but may not know how. You can learn more about how to get involved by submitting an interest form for the Capital Collaborative’s next cohort or signing up for the newsletter.